What's the big deal? Look for those whom are looking for you. Go find the woman whom is willing to be in my embrace rather than wonder why this one doesn't want to. And these days, I rarely get turned down because:
a.) I adhere to cabeceo when I am in a festival.
b.) I am contented to have a great tanda a night, rather than take a risk to have ten mediocre ones.
c.) I am an excellent social dancer. Shameless brag yet it is true... haha.
Still, I get ticked off by this rejection: a woman turns me down by saying that she is tired and needs a rest. OK, fine and understandable. But the next song, she gets up right in front of my face and accepts an invitation from another man.
This, in my book of tango etiquette, is the biggest offender.
For sure, she will not be getting another look from me as long as I remember this episode. Not that she cares, Nor I.
I think Ney Melo said that when you turn someone down, saying you are "tired" or whatever, that you are then in "the penalty box" for the remainder of the tanda. I think it is only kind and fair to adhere to this, but there are lots of very unkind and unfair people...so you are right not to care about that one.
ReplyDeleteIt happened to me a few times... latest from a visitor from out of town, whom was introduced by a mutual friend.
ReplyDeleteIf the woman moves around and then accepts an invitation elsewhere, fine, whatever. But right in my face? It is just disrespectful...
I don't believe in the penalty box anymore (I believe in dancing with who I want to dance with - and sometimes I reserve specific orchestras for specific leaders), but I also don't believe in giving excuses as to why I'm not dancing. If you say you're tired, you should sit and be tired for a couple of songs - unless you really don't like the guy I guess.
ReplyDeleteI avoid the whole thing by just saying "No thank you" and smiling. No reason, just a polite rejection. Since I haven't given a lame-o excuse like being tired, I don't have to feel bad if I say yes to the next guy.
Sometimes I'll even say "Oh, I was just about to dance with someone else, but thank you" - just to make it even more official :-)
Would you rather the follower be honest and say, "No thanks because I'm really not interested in dancing with you right now?"
ReplyDeleteWhat Tina said.
ReplyDeleteI would have to add though, if the answer is a simply "No, thank you", it's unlikely I will ask that person again. The reason is that, to me, that means, "I don't want to dance with you, period". A "Not right now", or "Not tonight" leaves room for some other invites at a later time.
I actually prefer a short, but accurate explanation, because it eliminates confusion. For example, at a festival a few years back, I asked a woman who I was seeing quite frequently in my home town, even though she wasn't from there. She said "Sorin, at this festival I'd like to dance with the people I don't normally get a chance to dance with, I hope you understand". And I totally did.
Henry, Yes, I definitely prefer " No thanks, because I'm really not interested in dancing with you right now!" Or " No,thanks, but I don't think I want to dance with you." than " No I am tired and needs a break" and then stands up the next song and dancing with another man. It is just lame.
ReplyDeleteIt is like " well, I am too tired to dance with you, but I am happy to dance the other guy." Yes, it is anybody's right to turn down an invitation, but one doesn't have to do it in such bad taste manner. One doesn't have to be friendly with everyone. But it doesn't mean that one should offend another one, intentionally or inintentionally.
Or it might be just me... having these ego/face issues. ;-)
ReplyDelete"well, I am too tired to dance with you, but I am happy to dance the other guy"
ReplyDeleteI actually don't have a problem with someone being too tired to dance with me but happy to dance with someone else. There could be many reasons for that, for example, I could be in a "high energy" mode and she can see that, but she isn't. Or she really wanted to dance with THAT guy, at any cost, so it's not about me, it's about someone else. That is why CLEAR communication helps. When it's diplomatically formulated is even better. Examples that would work :
"I'm too tired to dance with you well, could we dance next time?"
"I've been trying to dance with this guy the whole night, could we dance next time?"
"Not right now, maybe later" (translation, "if you ask later, as in at least half an hour, I might say yes")
"Not right now, ask me later please" (translation, "if you ask later, as in at least half an hour, I will say yes")
"Not right now, can I come get you later?" (translation, "I would like to dance with you on my own terms if you want")
Women generally avoid giving detailed answers because of the few losers who can't take no for an answer. If I was hosting a milonga this would be a reason for a permanent ban for the offenders. Oh, yeah, and the other losers to come to the table with an extended hand. But don't get me started... ;)
Sorin,
ReplyDeleteThat's why we should be promoting cabeceo here, although sometimes it could be confusing and create embarrassing situation as well.
Personally I think cabeceo is a bit overrated. As you said, it can often create other types of embarrassments and it's not even remotely reliable unless EVERYONE is using it. Lost count how many times I tried to catch someone's eye, she looked like she was avoiding it, I asked later anyway and got "scolded" for not asking earlier. And we're talking about good dancers here.
ReplyDeleteIt doesn't matter what means of communication is used if it RELIABLY works.
It's so interesting to see what guys have to say about the being turned down thing. I hope there are more comments from more dudes!
ReplyDeleteI have constant arguments about this sort of thing on my blog!
ReplyDeleteSometimes a woman might really be having a rest and turn someone down only to have a good friend ask and then feel she must dance as it may be her only chance to dance with them.
I really think you guys should stop thinking about this or just use cabeceo. The fact that they dim the lights so much in London makes it sometimes difficult and I only ever ask my friends now, otherwise I never ask men.
Granted, women should be more sensitive or clear in their responses. I usually say no thank you if I don't want to dance with a man. Maybe later means maybe later. I wrote a post on why I might say no. Who cares really. I don't get offended when I don't get asked. I know I am a good dancer. People have their reasons for not dancing. Maybe the woman hadn't seen you dance yet. I personally am not crazy about the element of surprise.
The intention of this post is about etiquette. Sometimes we have to be a little more sensible with our attitude, regardless of our dance level. After all we dance tango. To dance tango well, we need to have certain degree of sensibilities and sensitivities, no?
ReplyDeleteA little smile on the face when saying no, or a few extra words of explanation, or simply sitting a few extra minutes wouldn't kill anybody. Be a little more considerate, whatever goes around, comes around. Karma sometimes is a b%^ch.
I am a leader so I get to invite people to dance. I can only make my best judgement when initiate an invitation. However, I cannot control how she responds. Her behaviour would affect my attitude towards her in future. Unless proven otherwise, I will black list all people who are not nice or inconsiderate towards me, be it intentionally or unintentionally. Period. There is no point to dance with someone who is not nice.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Tango Pilgrim. Just say 'No, thanks'. If you do want to dance at some other time, you might add some comment to indicate that, otherwise I don't see the point in an explanation. I think what offended TP was that the woman was lying him in the face and didn't even have the courtesy to try and hide it.
ReplyDeleteNo lies, please, it is not usually considered good manners, tango or not.
I try to stick with the cabeceo as far as possible, thinking that the women I do want to dance with, generally will know how it works. Sometimes that is hard, and then I improvise ;-)
Yes, Simba,
ReplyDeleteNo lies, please. If you are tired, then stay tired for a few songs. Don't get miraculously rejuvenized just three minutes after. I saw you drinking bottle water, not six pack of redbull. :-)
Funny thing is that it happened to me the few times whenever I broke my rule of cabeceo and invited the woman verbally. And the women were just average dancers, not even the typical diva type whom I don't even bother with. More reason to stick with my theory: you don't understand cabeceo, you are not the type I want to dance with.
Anon,
ReplyDeleteI don't go so far as to blacklist all the people whom were unkind or nasty. But I still remember the cold and make-you-feel-unworthy rejection I had with this woman about two years ago, when I was already a decent dancer. I never lay my eyes on her again. And now I am an excellent social dancer. :-)
I think it boils down to this:
ReplyDeleteLeaders: Suck it up and take no for an answer. If I say no to a guy, and he doesn't like that and decides not to ask me again, fine by me. Nothing personal taken. Just as I hope he doesn't take it personally that I'm not interested in dancing. If it's someone I really genuinely would like to dance with later in the evening, I always tell them when I turn them down. So far that has worked just fine.
Followers: If you say no, be nice. You don't have to give a big ol' reason if you don't want to but it is true that a kind smile goes a long way. This is a social dance, and the guy asking you is a human being who just wants to dance.
P.S. The cabeceo is alive and well in Seattle! :-)
ReplyDeleteI'm with Tina on this.
ReplyDeletePilgrim, I am surprised with you in a way considering how in your previous post about people staying or leaving you couldn't give a fig.
Now you are moaning about people being impolite. You know that you really can't teach an adult manners. If they haven't learned by now, they never will.
After not dancing for a few weeks, I am going out tonight to meet Sallycat and her Amor. They have flown into London from BA. I will be smiling a lot and saying no thank you a lot. :-)
Haha... Arlene,
ReplyDeleteStay tuned for the next post, all related. :-) And you know what, I really don't give a damn if a woman wants to dance with me or not these days. If I want, I could be dancing all night. Then again, you would have to read me coming posts while I only dance much less now. hahaha...
On another note, if you could, a hello to Sally for me.
Hey Pilgrim, you are a very funny guy!
ReplyDeleteCan't wait to read your next post. Hmmm!
Will say 'hi' to Sally, no problem.
I want to give a note of thanks to everyone in the blogosphere who has pointed out their annoyance at the "No thanks, I'm tired," response. Over the past year or so, I have recalibrated the way I approach turning people down. Even if I really am tired, I usually only explain this to friends who I know will understand. If I am tired or unsure or not feeling it at the moment, I often say, "Not right now, maybe later?" or "I'm a bit tired, maybe when the next song starts?" (and then am sure to stay and talk and actually dance with him when the next song comes on!). If I truly don't want to dance with a leader, I try to simply say, "No, thanks." (With a smile, of course!)
ReplyDeleteThe hardest thing that I have found is trying to explain myself concisely, kindly, and in a way that doesn't come off as making excuses. The thing is, unless I already have a dancing relationship with a leader, I have found that any rejection (even some variation on "how about later?") often results in the leader not approaching me again, at least until another night.
Thanks for the comment MT,
ReplyDeleteOne note, from a guy's point of view, if woman turns me down earlier, then later comes and asks me for a dance. I would be happy to have the tanda with her. I can't say every guy would do the same, but most of the good dancers would. If you really like to dance with him, try to approach the guy later. If the guy gives your attitude, then you can check him off your dance card "permenantly". :-)
I have had a super embarassing moment of saying "no thank you" without explanation.
ReplyDeleteThe man is the worst dancer in town. No musicality, no technique, no understanding that it takes TWO to tango and compelte inability to navigate a crowded dance floor. To this day I remember the first and last time I danced with him. Most women do like I did, you try it once, you flee for a lifetime.
One night he hounded me (I could see him from afar trying to reach me before another dancer would) and when I finally took a break he pounced. I said no and he asked "why?" I did not want to say that I was "tired" because I did not feel like sitting in the penalty box :) I'll spare you teh details of the ensuing conversation but I was really embarassed even though I was not the rude one.
You're right, some people cannot be taught manners, they're too old for that!
Stephanie,
ReplyDeleteI don't think that there is anything to be embarassed about as long as you've said no nicely. There is no incentive for bad dancers to improve, quit or stop bothering if they get dances.
One night one sick old guys walked through the piso while we were dancing and knocked my partner. My partner said something to him and he started cursing her with the b-word. The moment he used the b-word, I got up to his face and confronted him.
Majority of people who dance tango are good people, but there are also a few bad apples. Just like everything else in life.
Here are 2 other scenarios to consider.
ReplyDeleteFirstly -In our culture and from my dancing etiquette lessons(not Tango though),I have been taught to never say "no" when invited to dance.It is an honour to be asked! (Unless of course I have been abused or severely embarrassed by the behaviour of my invitee and I am not speaking about dancing skills here).
The cabaceo is a very powerful medium which can work both ways. I see it as "me first". How exciting for a follower to begin her dance with this very powerful and emotional engagement of the eyes. However, how must a leader feel if his gaze is avoided the whole night? True, he has been saved the embarrassment of a public refusal, but the feeling of rejection is still there.
I have never been able to find out if this "eye contact" game is used in BA to invite potential dance partners at other dance shows; ie discos, or non tango dance parties. Can anyone tell me?
I often read about non-Argentinian cultures being "too shy" to engage in the cabaceo. Could it be simply that it is not in their culture to practice this and perhaps the verbal invitation may be considered more polite?
This game can have detrimental effects for couples who attend Milongas with their significant other.(Unless of course an agreement has been reached between the couple to use the cabaceo.)
Scenario 2:
I have come close to quitting tango because of the cabaceo excluding me at times, as I attend milongas with my significant other. Don't get me wrong, we love to swap partners, but generally there are more women at these milongas who sometimes try to engage in the cabaceo with my significant other. I could quite easily be sitting all night at a milonga, watching my significant other dance, if he accepted the many gazes from mostly single women! Some women verbally ask too.
However, the saying "It takes Two to Tango" works very well when 1)we swap with other couples by verbally suggesting it, or 2) my significant other usually waits till I have been invited before he extends an invitation to another partner. Of course, my significant other is free to invite whoever he pleases at Milongas, but I have been actually told by a leader who has never invited me to dance that I have a partner and he feels obliged to dance with the singles!!! I wonder if other leaders feel the same way? Sometimes I feel like the 'boring old wife' at Milongas!